A Debate on America’s Financial Future?
With a little over two weeks to go before the general election, this is quite possibly the last time each candidate will have to persuade many of the voters who have not made a decision yet. This debate is scheduled to discuss domestic policy (education, social security, etc.) but in light of the financial crisis that is looming on Wall Street, be prepared to have this issue monopolize the debate.
Remember each student must decide who won the debate (no ties!), Senator John McCain or Senator Barack Obama and then post a paragraph or two argument as to why that candidate won the debate. It would be beneficial and ideal if students actually watch each debate but the following non-partisan political links and candidate sites will assist those students unable to actually view the debates.
ϖPolitical Wire
ϖPolitico
ϖReal Clear Politics
ϖSenator John McCain
ϖSenator Barrack Obama
ϖhttp://www.barackobama.com/issues
ϖFact Check
( a non-partisan site that checks the accuracy of each candidates political commercials)
Remember you are responsible for posting your initial post and two responses to other blogger’s posts by the due date above. Consult your rubric to maximize your score.
Due Friday, October 24, 2008
29 comments:
another test
whatever
I believe Obama won the debate because he used Logos, ethos, and pathos better then McCain.
Logos
Obama: He focussed on the economy and how he could help the middle class. “But what we haven't yet seen is a rescue package for the middle class. Because the fundamentals of the economy were weak even before this latest crisis. So I've proposed four specific things that I think can help.” He wants to show that he is for the everyday person.
McCain: He wants to show that Obama wants to tax everyone. McCain said “McCain said “Joe the plumber” faced “much higher taxes” under Obama’s tax plan and would pay a fine under Obama’s health care plan if he failed to provide coverage for his workers.” Fact Check said McCain was wrong and the only way Joe the Plumber would pay higher taxes is if he makes more then 200,000 dollars a year.
Pathos:
Obama: Wants all the middle income people to be excited about his plan because he wants 95% of the country to have a tax break and the he would raise the higher 5% of peoples tax. He wants the lower 95% to feel relief
McCain: Wants every one to be critical of Obama. He wants people to think that he a great deal to do with the Acorn scandal. he wants them to believe he has relations Ayers. Has Collin Powel said has no relevance and is not true.
Ethos:
Obama: His ethos his the fact that he grew up in middle income family.
McCain: The fact that he has been in the Senate for over 20 years.
Skids
Barack Obama won the final presidential debate because his logos, pathos, and ethos were superior to John McCains logos, pathos, and ethos
Logos
Both candidates have the same message: that they are the better candidate for president.
John McCain presents this message by saying that America is in trouble, and that he will help to quell the fear in the country. For instance fixing the home ownership problems. He says he will bring a bright future to America. But his message is supported with a week pathos and logos.
Barack Obama says he is the better candidate because he will help the people of America and his pathos and ethos supports that fact. He stars off by addressing the middle class and saying that the country hasn't seen a “rescue package...” for the middle class. He then details out how he plans to fix it.
Pathos
Again, both candidates share the same pathos. They create a positive emotion of hope to support their message.
John McCain supports his message of hope by addressing and saying that he will lower taxes. He uses once again the example of Joe the plumber. He says that Obamas plan will raise taxes for Joe the plumber not allowing him to reach his American dream.
Barack Obama gives us a message of hope by addressing the fact that he is the better candidate because he is able to take what McCain said and saying no your wrong, and I’ll tell you why. You can tell because Obama came back at this statement about Joe the plumber by explaining that McCain has misinterpreted his plan and he went on to detail out what exactly it was.
Ethos
I don't believe in the credibility of john McCain much because his is constantly changing his policies and is unclear in his answers. A lot of the time he doesn't answer the question completely and goes off in another direction.
Unlike Mr. Gory told us to, he he doesn't refute the other side. He addresses it but he doesn't explain why the other side is wrong.
Obama does refute the other side. He also uses figures and, studies, and other pieces of information to make himself seam credible, knowledgeable, a man you can trust.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/10/debate-transcri.html
I forgot to cite
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_debate_no_3.html
I believe that Barack Obama won the final debate through logos, pathos and ethos.
Logos: The candidates both serve the same message with different plans to back them up. Their message is “I'm the better candidate to become president.” McCain starts to back his message up by talking about how Obama was going to tax anyone who makes $250,000 or more a year will “pay the same or lower then they did in the 1990's”(Obama's tax plan), but McCain made it out to seem that “Joe the plumber”(McCain speaking)”looked at your tax plan and he saw that he was going to pay much higher taxes.” Obama fought back by saying “He (Joe) has been watching ads of Senator McCain's.” That is not true by fackcheck.org “Wurzelbacher (Joe the plumber) admitted to a reporter that he won't actually make enough from his new plumbing business to pay Obama's higher tax rates. ABC said his admission would seem to indicate that he would be eligible for an Obama tax cut.” Obama focuses mainly on the middle class and the economy in the debate. He agreed with McCain on helping homeowners.
Pathos:Both candidates had similar emotion from the start, but Obama's was much stronger. McCain started the debate by telling viewers about Nancy Reagan being in the hospital. Then he goes into “Joe the plumber,” and how Obama's plan is to raise taxes so Joe will not be allowed to complete his American dream. While Obama is not only able to take something someone said is wrong with his plan and tell them why its not true, unlike McCain. He shows this with the “Joe the plumber” accusation that McCain gave him and tell McCain why he is wrong.
Ethos: McCain has been in the Senate for 20 years. He has not had solid policies, and he also keeps changing his plans. While Obama hasn't change his plans and they are solid. He was in the Illinois state senate.
I used
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_debate_no_3.html,http://www.barackobama.com/index.php, http://www.johnmccain.com/splash32615.htm
Seahawk200: proof read before posting. Lack of information on the ethos could have given a little more on McCain than just he served 20 years in the senate.
skids: some problems in your writings. Need to proof read. Like your points, very well rounded.
McCain was trying to push him self up and push Obama down by bringing irrelevant things up like the Ayers thing up. He also was bring things that were not true yes McCain’s ethos is that he has been in the senate for 20 years, where you can learn to work with the other side and have been in the federal government. His ethos on military since he was a pilot in Vietnam.
This time around I've got to go with Obama.
Both candidates have trouble in the field of creditability. I believe that with the polls leaning toward Obama McCain seems to be scrambling for ways and reasons to put Obama’s plans down. Take his references to Joe the Plumber and how he would have to pay larger taxes under Obama’s tax plan, and be fined under Obama’s healthcare plan for not providing coverage to his employees. This claim by McCain turned out to be false, and apparently Joe would not get higher taxes under Obama, but more likely a large tax break. This false fact by McCain seriously crippled his Ethos.
Obama’s Ethos is not solid in its presentation, but he has bettered McCain in this field at this point. His association with Acorn has made him less creditable in the eyes of many, but in-fact McCain has also been affiliated with them in the past (in 2006 he gave a large rally for them) so Obama comes out the better man with McCain’s accusations sometimes backfiring like they did here.
Both candidates showed some good pathos in this debate, but once again Obama was the better of the two. McCain had his down home story of Joe the plumber ad the problems this little man business would have under the Obama plan. This however turned out to be false fact as stated in the text above. Obama’s pathos was based in his refuting of McCain’s comments on how his plan would fail, and this remained constant threw the entire debate.
The logos of both candidetes has been the same through and through, both will fix Iraq, fix the Economy, and help the little man Obama is just more appealing in his method of doing it. While most Americans want out of Iraq and want it now McCain plans to stay and finish the job while Obama has his more appealing 16 months and we’re out of there plan which most Americans now favor. Obama on last check Obama wanted to give health plans to every one, which many would like to see as a reality, as well as his large tax breaks for the little man.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_debate_no_3.html
seahawk200 I don't understand how "........Obama: Wants all the middle income people to be excited about his plan because he wants 95% of the country to have a tax break and the he would raise the higher 5% of peoples tax. He wants the lower 95% to feel relief..........." is emotion sounds more like logos to me.
I believe that Barack Obama all around won the third presidential debate. He had more emotion to appeal to the middle class, his message was about change which this country needs, and his credibility was greater than John McCain’s.
Pathos - When it comes to emotion John McCain started off the issue of tax cuts by saying about the American people, “They're hurting, and they're angry. They're innocent victims of greed and excess on Wall Street and as well as Washington, D.C. And they're angry, and they have every reason to be angry.” He wanted to get the point across that he knew how they were really feeling. He also talked about “Joe the plumber” “wants to buy the business that he has been in for all of these years, worked 10, 12 hours a day.” But Obama didn’t just relate his case to “Joe the plumber” but to most hard working Americans, “And what I want to do is to make sure that the plumber, the nurse, the firefighter, the teacher, the young entrepreneur who doesn't yet have money, I want to give them a tax break now.” He also made sure to credit small businesses “because they are the drivers of the economy.” The hard working people of the middle class make up the small businesses of America and that’s what drives our economy and Barack Obama understands that more than John McCain does.
Logos – Barack Obama’s message is that this country needs change in order to get any better. He not only thinks it is in our best interest to take care of issues now but to also “invest now in our young people and their ability to go to college, that will allow them to drive this economy into the 21st century.” He is aware that our energy dependency needs to change, “If we invest in a serious energy policy, that will save in the amount of money we're borrowing from China to send to Saudi Arabia.” He’s also looking for new ways to keep the people protected while saving money, “If we make investments [in health care] now so that people have coverage, that we are preventing diseases, that will save on Medicare and Medicaid in the future.” John McCain has some ways to create change in the country but some things are the same as what’s happening now. One way he wants to create change is if “we become energy independent and we will create millions of jobs -- millions of jobs in America.” McCain wants to take “300 of that [$750] billion [for mortgage companies] and go in and buy those home loan mortgages and negotiate with those people in their homes, 11 million homes or more, so that they can afford to pay the mortgage, stay in their home.” But this could create problems because as Obama said “it could be a giveaway to banks if we're buying full price for mortgages that now are worth a lot less.” McCain also said to “Joe the plumber” “I'll not only help you buy that business that you worked your whole life for and be able -- and I'll keep your taxes low and I'll provide available and affordable health care for you and your employees.” McCain is promising things without really proving that he can do those things whereas Obama is explaining plans, letting people judge for themselves if the agree and not making promises that he can’t necessarily keep.
Ethos – Both candidates claimed false facts but John McCain had more false facts than Barack Obama. “McCain said “Joe the plumber” faced “much higher taxes” under Obama’s tax plan and would pay a fine under Obama’s health care plan if he failed to provide coverage for his workers. But Ohio plumber Joe Wurzelbacher would pay higher taxes only if the business he says he wants to buy puts his income over $200,000 a year, and his small business would be exempt from Obama’s requirement to provide coverage for workers.” He took a false stab at Obama’s health care plan by “claim[ing] that Obama’s real “object” is a government-run, single-payer health insurance system like those in Canada or England. The McCain campaign points to a quote from five years ago, when Obama told a labor gathering that he was “a proponent of a single-payer health care program.” But Obama has since qualified his enthusiasm for Canadian-style health care, and his current proposal is nothing like that.” He also stabbed at Obama by trying to tie him to a bad group, “McCain claimed the liberal group ACORN “is now on the verge of maybe perpetrating one of the greatest frauds in voter history ... maybe destroying the fabric of democracy.” In fact, a Republican prosecutor said of the biggest ACORN fraud case to date: “[T]his scheme was not intended to permit illegal voting.” He said $8-an-hour workers turned in made-up voter registration forms rather than doing what ACORN paid them to do.” Obama wasn’t completely truthful but the things he wasn’t truthful about don’t seem as big as issues as what John McCain falsely claimed. “Obama repeated a dubious claim that his health care plan will cut the average family’s premiums by $2,500 a year. Experts have found that figure to be overly optimistic.” He also “incorrectly claimed all of McCain’s ads had been “negative.” That was true for one recent week, but not over the entire campaign. And at times Obama has run a higher percentage of attack ads than McCain.”
Works Cited:
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_debate_no_3.html
http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/president/debates/transcripts/third-presidential-debate.html
I think that Barack Obama won the third preidential debate because of how he used Pathos, Logos, and Ethos better then John McCain.
Pathos:
Obama:Is targeting the people of the middle class income because of his plans. Barack has planed to have 95% of America or the middle classes to have reduced taxes while he also plans to increase taxes of th other 5% of America or the wealthy.
McCain: Plans his point of attack by targeting the Entrepreneurs and the small businesses by giving them tax relief. McCain belives that "Entrepreneurs should not be taxed into submission." John McCain will keep the top tax rate at 35 percent, maintain the 15 percent rates on dividends and capital gains, and phase-out the Alternative Minimum Tax.
Logos
Obama: Has targeted the economy by helping the middle class. He wants to be able to help the middle class.
McCain: Belives that "Small businesses are the heart of job growth; raising taxes on them hurts every worker." He wants to lower taxes for them.
Ethos: McCain has been a the United States Senator for 20 years. Heseems to be always changing his mind on policies in hope to find a "happy medium to maximize his votes by changing his mind on his plans.
Barack Obama was in the Illinois state senate. Obama hasn't changed that much on his viewpoints he doesn't seem to keep one skin color. Not meant in a bad way but he seems to be white for the white crowd and black for the black crowd. This shouldn't effect the outcome of the presidential race but unfortunately it does. He makes me feel like he's scrambling for votes.
http://www.johnmccain.com
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/
amsus13
I don't just think that Obama just has "more appealing" methods for fixing things. His plans are more detailed and would be more likely to help than McCain's. He's going to provide more change for this country which is really needed. I don't think you should base him winning your part of logos on the fact that he's "more appealing."
patsfan
"Obama: Has targeted the economy by helping the middle class." What do you mean by "has targeted" are you referring to something he's done as a Senator or what he plans to do?
PrettyinPink
The whole idea of running for presedent is to be more appealing, and being more detailed is part of being more appealing. All of those details are within the "Appeal".
Barack Obama won the 3rd presidential debate in my words. Both candidates strongly pushed for their beliefs and ideas they wish to bring to the White House.
Logos:During this debate both candidates tried to reach out to voters to persuade them to vote for them on November 4, 2008 in the election. On all the questions asked by Bob Schieffer, Obama consecutively was able to give a plan, refute McCain’s and state why it would not work for our country and the huge issues we face today. McCain states that “Joe the Plumber” would have to pay more taxes, under Obama’s plan, if he bought the business he has worked for, for many years. It places him in the higher class, earning over $250,000 a year. This statement that McCain repeated numerous times in the debate was proved to be untrue though factcheck.org and ABC, “he would be eligible for an Obama tax cut.” Obama will be giving tax breaks to 95% of Americans and McCain’s tax cuts are given to the wealthiest companies in the U.S. such as Exxon. This is not helping the American people. Our economy is in need to a solution that works. McCain says a spending freeze will fix it and help gain money to fix our deficit. Obama’s plan will go through the programs that don’t work, such as Medicare and Medicaid, and to greater fund the ones that work. But sticking a freeze on all programs will continue to fund those programs that don’t work at all. McCain says “He (Senator Obama) voted twice for a budget resolution that increases the taxes on individuals making $42,000 a year.” Obama corrects McCain and states, “the notion that I voted for a tax increase for people making $42,000 a year has been disputed by everybody who has looked at this claim that Senator McCain keeps on making.” During the debate McCain also makes faulty claims about Obama’s connections with ACORN and Ayers. Senator Obama took a large portion out of the debate clarifying and explaining why these accusations are inaccurate, and factcBoth candidates discussed their plans and played the politic game. They tried to give reasoning to why the voters should not vote for their opponent and why they fit the position as president better. But the numerous claims of faulty accusations said by McCain, that have been proved to be wrong does not make his logos strong. The approach Obama took in this debate by refuting McCain’s ideas and giving factual reasoning behind it made him the debate winner.heck.org also proved them wrong.
Pathos: In the opening of the debate Senator John McCain said, “And, by the way, our beloved Nancy Reagan is in the hospital tonight, so our thoughts and prayers are going with you.” That statement made by McCain was pleasant and many people probably thought it was thoughtful to touch on. John McCain also uses “Joe the Plumber” to reach out to the middle class people, trying to connect him and with other small business owners. (Claims of the “Joe the Plummer” story was later found untrue) During the debate Obama stayed calm, as McCain got frustrated and tried to verbally attack him. Obama gives credit where credit is due. His remarks about McCain were positive if he agreed about the issue. “Now you’ve shown independence—commendable independence, on some key issues like torture, for example, and I give you enormous credit for that” Obama said. Bob Schieffer asked if Obama felt Sarah Palin was qualified to be president. Instead of being negative towards her he stated, “You know, I think it's -- that's going to be up to the American people. I think that, obviously, she's a capable politician who has, I think, excited the -- a base in the Republican Party. And I think it's very commendable the work she's done on behalf of special needs. I agree with that, John.” When McCain is asked the same question about Joe Biden he answers, “He’s been wrong on many foreign policy and national security issues, which is supposed to be his strength.” McCain’s attitude towards the Obama Administration was negative and the Americans need someone that is positive. Obama wanted to have the Americans hear about the issues and topics that are most important to them. He wanted to move away from talking about the negative ads and how McCain’s feelings were hurt by them. “I think the American people are less interested in our hurt feelings during the course of the campaign than addressing the issues that matter to them so deeply” said Obama, clearly showing how he feels strongly about what he proposes. Both candidates care about the American people, but I felt Barack Obama was more passionate about what he stands for and how he can help the Americans.
Ethos: McCain is owed more credibility than Obama, because he has been in Congress both the house and senate for 25 years and he also was in the military for 22 years. But this does not make him a better presidential candidate. With all of the false allegations he accused Obama with during the debate, does not make him look knowledgeable about what he is talking about. Senator Barack Obama has not been in the Senate very long. He was sworn in January 3, 2005 in the Illinois State Senate which meant working with both Democrats and Republicans. Even though Obama has not been doing this as long as McCain he holds many great ideas that will lead to change and change is what we need.
www.factcheck.org
www.barackobama.com
www.johnmccain.com
http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/president/debates/transcripts/third-presidential-debate.html
Goldfish so who in your opinion won?
seahawk200, as i stated in the first sentence I believe Barack Obama won the debate. I may have given reasonings why they both are qualified but i did refute McCains.
Due to his use of pathos and logos, I believe Obama won the debate even though McCain has a better ethos.
Pathos
Obama used this better than McCain because of his confidence he showed. He maintained a steady pace and didn't get angry at some of McCain's comments. McCain n the other hand almost seemed angered and flustered when Obama would strike back at him.
Logos
Obama also used this to his advantage when he explained his tax breaks. He said 95% of the people would get breaks and 5% would not. Sounds good to me. McCain tried to say that Joe the Plumber would have to pay fines under Obama's plan but this was actually only if Joe made over 200,000 dollars a year.
Ethos
This is the only thing I believe McCain has on Obama solely because he has more experience and there is nothing else to say about that.
my sites were Fact Check and Political Wire
Amsus, I believe Seahawk could use that passage for pathos if s/he was saying that it would make people happy. Happiness is an emotion.
Soccer, I believe your reply to skids is a little vague more details to me him, or any other user would be helpful. Thanks
amsus13, when you say "Both candidates have trouble in the field of creditability." I disagree. McCain has been in congress both the house and the senate for 22 years and he has also served in the military for 22 years. How do you figure there is no credibility there?
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